Work Face
A podcast where people finally tell the truth about work. Workplace culture expert Ben Jackson hosts refreshingly honest conversations with people from all walks of life about what actually happens on the job.
Work Face
The Art of Diplomatic Dissent (with Catt Small)
Speaking up at work is hard enough as it is, but when you feel like the odd one out, advocating for yourself becomes even harder. How do you tell your boss when they're making you uncomfortable or doing something that undermines your performance? The secret is simpler than you think.
Catt Small is a staff product designer, game maker and developer. She's worked with companies including Asana, Etsy, and SoundCloud. She also makes video games, draws art, and is the Executive Director for the Game Devs of Color Expo.
(00:00) A Culture of Excess
(04:05) Proving Yourself in Unfamiliar Territory
(06:32) Navigating Cultural Differences at Work
(13:14) “This Job is Going to Kill Me”
(20:16) From Defensive to Effective Communication
(24:03) Speaking Up Without Burning Bridges
(28:44) Creating Inclusive Team Cultures
(31:35) Finding Your Voice in Toxic Environments
Follow Catt on Bluesky, read her writing at cattsmall.com, and check out her course, “Staff Designer: Influence & Lead as an Individual Contributor” on Maven.
See also:
Radical Candor by Kim Scott
The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership by Diana Chapman, Kaley Klemp, and Jim Dethmer
Game Devs of Color Expo Sept. 16-19, 2025
--
Work Face is produced by Hear Me Out, a culture strategy firm for leaders with the courage to listen. We help them cultivate trust by having real conversations with employees at all levels about what’s working and what’s not.
Learn more at hearmeout.co and follow us on Instagram, Bluesky, and LinkedIn.
When you work at a legacy company, there can be a culture of excess. And so, um, yeah, we'd spend a lot of money on a lot of things like alcohol and cigars and sushi. This one time we flew out to San Francisco, for another work offsite. I remember we had gotten this like really expensive sushi dinner. And so I remember just like finishing that dinner, going back to my hotel room, like puking my brains out, and then sitting in the shower and just being like, "I can't do this. Like I legitimately cannot keep working at this job. Uh, it's going to kill me." And so yeah, I definitely started looking after that point.
Benjamin:Speaking up at work is hard enough as it is, but when you feel like the odd one out, advocating for yourself becomes even harder. How do you tell your boss when they're making you uncomfortable or doing something that undermines your performance? The secret is simpler than you think. I'm Ben Jackson, and this is Work Face, a podcast where people finally tell the truth about work. Catt Small is a staff product designer, game maker and developer. She's worked with companies including Asana, Etsy, and SoundCloud. She also makes video games, draws art, and is the Executive Director for the Game Devs of Color Expo. Catt Small, welcome to Workface.
Catt Small:Thank you. So good to be here.
Benjamin:Before we get started, um, what do you think our listeners should know about you?
Catt Small:Well, let's see. Um, I love cycling. And, um, yeah, I think a lot about like mindset shifts. Um, that's a conversation I've been having a bunch with people, um, especially when it comes to the relationship between, you know, themselves and, and work and, I don't know. Yeah, I'm just like a. nerd about, uh, design and like, just way that we operate in the world as people.
Benjamin:Do you have a favorite designer?
Catt Small:Oh gosh. Uh, that's a hard question. I mean, there's so many amazing people out there. I've been influenced by a bunch of really great people, and so if I had to name one or two of those people I would probably say, uh, I would give a shout out to, um, Jessica Harley is a really great designer who is the reason that I decided to go into, um, being an in individual contributor at a higher level. She's written a lot about her own relationship with work, so I would definitely recommend people check her out.
Benjamin:And what are some of your favorite things to work on outside of work?
Catt Small:I a lot of fun making games because I think that games are in some way, like a combination of all of the creative skill sets. So I'm a person who actually came from a fine arts background, and when I was a kid I was obsessed with drawing and painting and things like that. So I really like that. Uh, when I make a game, it's a combination of that, but it also involves a lot of working with technology, which is the other thing that I grew up doing. It is very similar to user experience design, but it's less about, um, kind of like. people to do a task faster, and it's more about creating a memorable, a memorable experience for people. I just have a lot of fun trying to figure out what kind of story I'm trying to tell, uh, and things like that. And that led me into creating a space to nerd out about games with creatives of color. Um, so I run the Game Devs of Color Expo, which normally happens in September. So this year it'll be, I think September 16th through 19th. And yeah, it's a, it's gonna be the 10th one, which is wild. And I'm just really looking forward to that because it always energizes me and gets me excited to work on my own projects.
Benjamin:I love it. We just recently had, uh, another person who works in games on the show, Bijan Stephen, a narrative designer at Compulsion Games.
Catt Small:So awesome.
Benjamin:Yeah,
Catt Small:It's always fun to hear how game designers think.
Benjamin:Yeah. So, we start each one of these episodes off with the same question. What do you remember about the first time you felt insecure in the workplace?
Catt Small:Yeah, the first time I remember feeling insecure. Um, it was my first role as an official product designer and it like, a big deal 'cause it was. You know, like I kind of felt like I really had to prove myself, and I was really, really, really trying hard to fit into the culture of the team that I had joined. This was quite early into my design career, and I just remember like getting there and, feeling like, okay, I need to be the best, like, I need to do the best I can. I was just out of college, like maybe like two years at that point. I was that kid in school who was very into getting, you know, top grades and, you know, being the teacher's favorite and stuff like that. And so coming into a place where, you know, I felt like this person had kind of taken a bet on me. That was my first job as a product designer. Officially, I'd come from a web design background. Um, but like, this was like a whole new set of skills that I had to learn. I had to learn how user experience design worked. Um, and so I definitely felt like, you know, I, I need to figure out how to do a good job here. and then at the same time, I think I was trying to figure out how do I fit into the culture of this workplace? Because it was just frankly very different from what I was used to previously, like I had mostly worked for much smaller businesses. This was like a 50 something thousand person company. It was a huge company. And then I think also, um, just culturally, there weren't a lot of New Yorkers, which I was also not super used to. Um, it was def it was like run also by a white guy, which like, I hadn't fully experienced that before, frankly. And so that was like a very interesting change to kind of see like a, a culture that was just a little bit different for me than, than what I was used to. So I was trying to figure out how to fit in and also how to prove that I was a good hire at the same time. So I just, I really remember jumping through a lot of hoops to, to show that I was like, you know, worth being there. And I was looking for a lot of validation from my manager at that point.
Benjamin:What are some things or really anything that stick out in your memory as culture shock?
Catt Small:I wasn't really much of a drinker at that time. Um, but there was a culture at this place of, you know, if it's like a Thursday, you kind of check out early and you go to a bar and just kind of like hang out from
like 3:00 PM until like whenever, and just like, frankly, like, you know, talk shit about the job and like the people there. So that was like one thing that it took a lot of adjustment at the time. So I was like, okay, so like, do we. Kind of like rag on our coworkers like all the time. Like, what does that mean? Um, so that was like really confusing for me. I think also, I remember there being a person who was kind of the favorite. And so I was trying to figure out like what does she like, because I also, you know, wanna be on the in crowd. And so I remember specifically for example, watching the HBO series Girls so that I could keep up with conversations that she would have with our manager . And so I was like, alright. Um, if this is what I have to do to make sure that I'm being told I'm doing a good job and like be, you know, validated in this role, then that's what I will spend my time doing. It was kind of like, there was like this nonchalant, nonchalant culture about like the work itself. Um, but then also there was just like this difference in terms of like the kinds of music and the kinds of like content and like the kinds of things that I personally cared about. And it kind of felt like I entered into almost like a parallel universe of sorts. So yeah, it just like really took me a minute to figure out like, is it me that's the problem? Or like, is this workplace just really strange? Um, and obviously later I realized like, okay, like be in a toxic workplace. But I think at first I was like, it must be because we are just so different culturally, and this is like my first time in this kind of environment, and so like, I think I just need to get used to it. So that was an interesting thing that I learned through that process. Like it wasn't our cultural differences, it was actually more just that like, frankly, I think our manager, I don't know if they were that experienced with managing a team, and I think that my manager kind of like defaulted to, you know, what maybe they thought would work for a team and like creating a team's culture.
Benjamin:What are some things the manager did related to the culture that might have seemed like a good idea to them at the time, but that in retrospect were very bad ideas?
Catt Small:Yeah, I think, um, yeah, there were times where we would go on like group trips to like conferences. And I, I did really appreciate that. Uh, but some times, we would go on these offsites and we would just go to their favorite places, and so their favorite places included like cigar bars and stuff, which was like, huh, like, I just didn't really wanna be spending my time. Like, it was like, we would walk in and, you know, like my manager would go get a cigar and stuff and we'd like go on the roof and just hang out and I'd just kind of be there like, uh, I don't smoke and I mean, it's just like kind of uncomfortable to be in this space, so I felt like that was one strong example. I think that my manager was trying to also create this feeling of us being this revolutionary team that was in this, honestly like, pretty old company and, you know, we were kind of trying to make it more modern. And so they would also try to, you know, pump us up as being the best, um, in the company and like, you know, trying to get us to feel like we were part of something really big. But I think that the downside of communicating with us like that is that we created this us versus them kind of culture where it kind of felt like, oh, like our teammates are kind of dumb. Like our engineers are just like so archaic. Or like, you know, like our boss's boss doesn't really know anything about design. We just started like talking about the people around us in a way that was kind of derogatory, frankly. So I felt like the activities that we were doing were very much like, like our manager was trying to expose us to the things that they liked, I think, you know, and try to bring us together. But it was mostly through the lens of like alcohol and like smoking and stuff like that.
Benjamin:I deeply sympathize with that. I know someone who worked at a smaller company. And one of the activities that the founder of this company thought would be really fun for the whole team to, to bring them together, um, was to have them wake up at the crack of dawn to go on a Daybreaker boat tour. Are you familiar with Daybreaker?
Catt Small:Yeah. It's like the thing where you show up on a boat and you like dance. Uh, I'm pretty sure like it's, it's like at 6:00 AM or something, or
Benjamin:It's a sober party on a boat at the crack of dawn, and I just remember hearing about that and thinking to myself, that sounds like a very specific person's idea of a good time that may not translate to 95, 99% of humanity.
Catt Small:Yeah.
Benjamin:And, and this person felt obligated to, to go to this thing. Um, because, you know, they were, they were a, a junior employee and, and the founder was the one who, who said, let's do this.
Catt Small:Yeah. I think like when you're early in your career, you're trying your hardest to figure out how to show up to the job. And yeah, that was definitely where I was at. There was this like feeling of like, I have to prove, you know, that I deserve to be here. And like some of the ways that I did that was by showing up to like anything I was invited to, like I was there, you know? And I feel like that is part of growing up, you realize like, okay, well actually yes, in some ways being a team player is really important. And by showing up to those kinds of things, you are being a team player, but at some point, if you're exposing yourself to a bunch of things that are draining your energy, then actually maybe it's fine to not show up. It was definitely rough. Like I felt myself becoming, like I was kind of becoming numb at certain points from just all of the alcohol. When you work at a legacy company or something like that, there can be a culture of excess. And so, um, yeah, we'd spend a lot of money on a lot of things like alcohol and cigars and sushi. Um, and I love sushi, which is, you know, it was a very fun time in that regard. But it was also like, there was just like flowing alcohol. I remember this one time we flew out to San Francisco, for another work offsite. And I remember we had gotten this like really expensive sushi dinner. And so I remember just like finishing that dinner, going back to my hotel room, like puking my brains out, and then sitting in the shower and just being like, "I can't do this. Like I legitimately cannot keep working at this job. Uh, it's going to kill me." And so yeah, I definitely started looking after that point. I remember the next day also showing up because this is the, this is how it would always work. It would be like a Thursday or like a Wednesday or something, and we'd go do these things and you show up the next day and you're like, oh, so exhausted. And some of my other collaborators on the team were just kind of like, yeah, you know, you just get the coconut water and you just, make everything better. So I go and I like grab some of that and like I then immediately was then sick again and we were like in meetings and stuff, so I was like over here like constantly feeling like I was on the verge of puking and I was supposed to concentrate on doing my actual job as a designer. And I think I realized at the that point that like there was no amount of validation that was worth, uh, how terrible I was feeling as a person. And then in that moment, obviously also just like, it was just literally nauseating. So there's no world in which of that was worth it for me.
Benjamin:I am so sorry to hear that, I mean, it sounds like it took a real toll on your physical and your mental health being in this workplace. Did you ever give your manager even a hint of how you felt or what you were experiencing?
Catt Small:I think I didn't know how to communicate directly at that point, I mean, I did, I did occasionally say like, I don't smoke, you know, or like, I'm not gonna go as hard today with the drinking. Um, so there were like subtle ways where I was like, yeah, I don't really feel like participating in this one that much, that much. Um, I think closer to my departure, frankly, I was definitely more like, I'm not gonna lunch today. I'm not doing this. Um, I think I didn't feel comfortable being more explicit about the way that it was affecting me with my manager because almost this feeling of like, if you are in, then you're in, and if you're out then you're a loser. And being a couple years outta school, like that idea of people's perceptions of me was really critical to me feeling like I was being successful in that role. I remember being actually like going through an interview, um, at that time where I was kind of talking about how bad the culture was, and somebody also had asked me, you know, like, Hey, have you tried to change the culture? And I was like, I, I mean, I don't even know where to start. It was hard for me at the time to figure out how to even begin that conversation,'cause it felt like my manager just had so much power over the team and, I felt like it was happening to me. What I've learned since, is that if you're in a situation like that, then ideally you do say, Hey, you know, I really appreciate, you know, what you're trying to do. Um, I think that we might need to work on some other ways to accomplish the same goals, and, you know, here's how this is impacting me uh, yeah, like I would love for us to, like, I will volunteer to like, try organizing some things that maybe are more inclusive. Like, I might've tried that if I had, now that I know what I know. But yeah, I think at the time I was young and um, really looking up to these people so much that I felt like if I had said something that went against what they, um, what was the culture at that time, that they would just further exclude me. And that's because like I. Other people as I, I kind of alluded to, like, it was really like a very, like us versus them kind of situation. So like, it was very clear who the in crowd was. And so it was like, I felt like I. If I said the wrong thing, you know, like, would that mean that I wouldn't be up for like a promotion or like, would my boss not look at me as like a person that's worth going to sending to conferences and stuff like that. But yeah, I, I didn't really feel like I could be explicit about the way that it was impacting me personally at the time.
Benjamin:You know, hearing you describe both your own experience coming into the company, um, and your fears and even this, this sort of us versus them mentality of the team that you were on at the time. The word that comes to mind for me is alienation. Did you have a sense that that was what was going on, even if you didn't necessarily have the language at the time to articulate it?
Catt Small:Yeah, I think that I definitely felt like there was something that was off for me at that time, right? Like I, I mentioned like culture and like our backgrounds maybe being part of it and kind of feeling like, okay, like this is clearly like a majority white workplace and I'm a black woman. And like, I think that already kind of put me a little bit on edge because sometimes going into those spaces, like you're, you're trying not to stick out too much'cause you already kind of stick out. I definitely did feel like the, the black sheep of, of the group. Um, so yeah, I think I was really at that time pretty desperate to do anything that would make me feel more included, um, and welcomed within that space. So I, I was really trying to like contort myself. But yeah, I think now that I'm older, it's like, the experience was a hundred percent like alienating. I don't know that it was like intentional on anybody's part to like saying, let's like make Catt feel like she's not included. But I don't think that they made an active effort to actually think about what an inclusive culture would look like.
Benjamin:I'm also struck hearing you describe the way that you would've approached that conversation knowing what you know today. Um, I'm struck by how diplomatic and effective of a communicator you've come to be. You know, it sounds like you have grown a lot, um, over your career, especially as it relates to, You know, communicating with stakeholders, with your boss, having difficult conversations. When did you first start to grow into a more effective communicator?
Catt Small:Yeah, it honestly, it wasn't until like several jobs later 'cause I, I'm actually… the core of my soul, I'm a shy person. And I'm pretty introverted, which is probably surprising because I show up at like panels and I'm on this podcast, but I'm actually quite introverted. And so I spent a lot of time, firstly working on just getting comfortable with doing public speaking in general. Um, but then I noticed when I started to work at later employers as a slightly more senior designer that I was still operating from a place that was really defensive. And so I would get into these situations where like I would be working with a product manager, for example, and like get really frustrated with that person. Um, and now that I'm older and I've just had more experience, I realized like, okay, I have to actually communicate my expectations. So I think part of it was just like making a lot of mistakes frankly, and realizing that people can't read your mind. You have to actually be pretty direct with people to, get, uh, the things that you want. So I started reading, um, some books when I was actually trying to transition from senior to the next level, which in design is usually called staff. Some places will call it principal or something like that. And I started to realize that. Communication was one of my larger gaps because I would see the way that leaders would communicate and I was just like, how are you like politicking so well? You know, like, how are you convincing people to like do these things? Or like, how is, how does influence even work? Um, so I started reading these books. For example, I read Radical Candor, which I think is a big one that helped me understand like, okay, there's like, you know being quiet and just seeing things happen, which is what I would do. You know, earlier in my career I would just kind of watch things and like barely say anything about what I saw happening. Um, and then, you know, there's being a jerk, which you also don't wanna be a jerk, but there's somewhere in the middle where it's kind of like, okay, you're actually, I. You want people to be better. So you do have to figure out how to have that candid conversation. So that was one. And then I also, um, ended up reading this other book, um, through the employer that I had ended up joining. Um, they sent me this book that was called The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership. Um, and that was a really great book that also helped me understand, um, how to have conversations in a way that focused on what we're trying to achieve. Like, okay, for example, if I were talking to my manager, earlier in my career, what I ideally would've focused on is, okay, you clearly want us to be a team of people who work closely together. Um, we feel enmeshed and like, you know, part of one, we're we're trying to work toward one goal, right? Like that's the point of all of the hanging out and the drinking and like comparing ourselves to other teams and all that stuff. Um, so that's the goal. Then, you know, we can talk about like what is working and like, what's not working and like how do we get to a place where we have the things that are working without the things that are clearly not working, and how do we maybe make it more of a shared responsibility on the team to, you know, invest in our culture so that maybe we're not always just doing things that you, the manager, like, but maybe sometimes we're doing, you know, you can see some of the things that I like. We can go to an arcade and you can see what that experience is like, or like we can do some of the things that other people on the team like to do. We have so many options here in terms of how we can become closer collaborators.
Benjamin:What are some of the mistakes that you see early career employees make when they are trying to speak up, but don't have the tools that you've grown to acquire?
Catt Small:I think something that early career individuals will do is they'll just point out a problem they won't really explain like why the problem is impacting them or like, try to really empathize potentially with the, what they view as the root of the problem. Um, and you know, that's a really hard thing to do, right? To reflect on like, what is this person actually trying to do? Like, they may not actually be in that case trying to harm you. Sometimes they are, obviously! Like some people are just jerks. But, um, when I look at what my manager was trying to do, they were trying to create moments for us to bond as a team and to be the strongest version of the team. Um, and so I think like number one is just like empathizing with the people that you're trying to give feedback to. I remember this one situation where I was just kind of like, ugh. Like this person is like, not. Helping, you know, helping me at all. Um, and I like gave them a really spicy review, which like, don't do that. Definitely have a conversation directly with a person and don't wait, uh, until the review. I think also just straight up like that, that feeling of like things happening to you and like having to fight and like defend, you know, that was also a big mistake that I made early on. When I learned to view my collaborators as actual collaborators and stop focusing as much on, myself and like the stuff that was just happening to me. I think that was also really important. I was on a panel yesterday and, and Rachel Hsiung actually mentioned something like that, where it was like when I stopped viewing the work as trying to get the accolades and I started to think about us as a team operating together toward an outcome. That was like such a big shift for Rachel and definitely for me as well.
Benjamin:It's funny, you know, when you started answering this question, um, and you said, most people just, they, they bring a problem. My mind immediately leapt to that, uh, the truism of don't, don't bring a problem without a solution. Um, and I know that a lot of employees, especially, you know, early career employees, um, have really internalized this. You know, it is repeated ad nauseum in so many workplaces by so many managers and HR leaders. And I'm curious, you know, for an employee who does see a problem and does not have a solution. How can they approach that conversation in a way that's not going to lead to that stock response from their manager of, well, have you thought of a solution?
Catt Small:Yeah. I would suggest people look into the potential for a facilitated conversation about what might create solutions or like what solutions might be out there. And that's why I think it's important to focus on like, what is the outcome that we're looking for versus just saying, Hey, like this is happening to me. You know, like in my case for example, what I probably would've said at the time was, you know, like, I'm tired of us drinking all the time, right? Like, that's the problem. Like we're, we're just drinking all the time and like we. We talk crap about people on other teams, and it's like not helpful, right? Like that's the issue. But if I had said at the time like, okay, so like that's the problem, you know? Like we're designers, like, let's sit down for like an hour and just come up with some potential solutions for this. So like, I feel like in a lot of cases, like an action, like proposing, even just like, let's workshop this together and figure out how we can get toward what we're actually trying to do. That's progress toward a solution. Maybe it's not the answer, right? But actually a lot of times it's also fine if you don't have the full answer. The challenge a lot of times with the way that more junior people communicate is that they, just like saying like, this thing is happening to me, and it's like, okay. Like, what do you actually want? You know, like that's for a lot of people who are in leadership, they just wanna know like, what do you want? And so if the thing that you want is like, I just wanna feel included and I don't wanna drink all the time, then like, it's okay to say that. If you don't have a solution yet, that's okay. Um, you can suggest that maybe you and the team sit down and workshop potential solutions together by focusing on a particular outcome that you would like to achieve.
Benjamin:What advice would you give to your old manager if they came to you and said, Hey, how, how could I do this better?
Catt Small:I would suggest that they think about what a healthy and happy team looks like. Like what are the attributes of that? Because I, I really do think that they just straight up weren't thinking about it. They were just like, oh, I want my teammates to be friends. I think legitimately they were probably just approaching it from the perspective of a person who has built friendships with people in the past and that that was like what had worked. Um, but I think when you're trying to build a team of people, especially when you hire a team of people who have like come from different backgrounds, you need to sit down and actually consider like, okay. What do I need to do to make sure that everybody feels included? That we are working productively together? And I think that if they had done that, they would've realized like, okay, we probably shouldn't check out of work at like three, you know, pretty much all the time and go get drunk.
And I think the other thing:I would suggest that they decenter themself. So, as I mentioned, like we were just kind of doing things that our boss liked all the time. Um, but if they had kind of made it more about like, okay, what do we as a group want to do? Together. I think that would've been a very different situation and we would've had more of like a shared investment in terms of the team's culture. And I think that that's really important. So some of the places that I've since worked, I've seen managers share responsibility for team culture with the reports on the team. Maybe one week somebody is running design crit, and then the next week it's a different facilitator. Like that kind of stuff is really beneficial, you know, to, to a team being closer and, and getting to know each other more, which is what my manager was trying to do. It just came from this place of like, well, you know, if we just go get drunk together and like smoke cigars, then like, you know, we, we are, we're having like a rad experience on this, like boat or whatever.
Benjamin:Yeah, that's, that's what stuck out to me hearing you describe this is really treating culture as a shared responsibility. And it sounds to me like the biggest mistake that that manager made as they were trying to create that culture, was seeing it as just their job and creating that culture in a vacuum.
Catt Small:Yeah, it was like, this is the culture. And you are either going to fit it or you're gonna just deal with it and stand on the sidelines.
Benjamin:What advice would you give to your former self? Who was struggling on this team and, and really, um, needed to go through some of this inner work to, to grow as a communicator. What would you tell yourself?
Catt Small:I think I would firstly say. To myself, like, you're not crazy. This is not a great space to be in. I think I would also probably say, Hey, like your manager just doesn't have the tools to really, you know, like your manager doesn't know what they don't know, so you're gonna have to go out of your way a little bit if you wanna keep this job to just communicate. Um, some suggestions about how to be a little bit more inclusive and to let them know what's happening to you and like what effect that's having on you and like what you want to see. At the time, honestly, I did think that the culture was my manager's job, and I think that's part of why I was like, oh, well, like I won't. I'm not gonna like fight for this because like my manager's job is to in fact, like organize us all to do certain things. Um, I just felt like, yeah, it was like kind of happening to me. So I think I would also say like, no, you can, you have a say in this and you can, you know, step up and like give feedback and you can do it in a way that, you know, empathizes with your manager. And I would definitely nudge myself to not come into the conversation from a place of defense, you know, like, oh, this is happening to me. But really, like, I would ask myself, what are you trying to achieve? Then how would you come to the conversation if you were concentrated on that? Instead of the pain that you are unfortunately feeling right now, which is very real. I probably still wouldn't have stayed. I probably still would've been like, you know, I, I think I would still tell myself like, that doesn't sound like long-term healthy. And if your manager doesn't respond well to the conversation you try to have, then you should probably get outta there. but you know, I think it would've been, been nice if I had given it a shot. So I think I would tell myself, if, if you do decide to leave the job, you wanna know that you did the best you could to make a change before you, before you run from it.
Benjamin:This has been a really, really fantastic conversation. Where can our listeners find you on the internet?
Catt Small:Yeah, so you can find me cattsmall.com. It's C-A-T-T-S-M-A-L-L.com. Or you can find me on LinkedIn, same spelling of my name. Um, that's pretty much the social media that I'm on now. I am also on Bluesky, my name there is like @catt.design, C-A-T-T-dot-design. Yeah, I try to keep my profile pretty small. Um, I guess the only other thing of note is, um, if you found any of this interesting, and you are a designer, then I am actually also gonna be running a course on Maven about a lot of this stuff around like communication and really like leaning into being a leader. Um, so you can also find my course on Maven if you're interested.
Benjamin:I will make sure to leave a link to that in the show notes. Before I let you go, is there anything else that you haven't had a chance to share and think we should know?
Catt Small:I mean, I just wanna underscore that I think it's really important that more people view their relationship with work as one, uh, where they have agency and control. And I think that, um, that mindset shift from um, you know, running defense to really operating from a place of abundance is so valuable and I hope that everybody gets to work on and experience the, that change where you go from a place of, Hmm, this is bad, and this is like, everything's on fire, you know, to a place of wow. Like, let me concentrate on the things that I can actually do to make change here. It's, it's pretty awesome. Um, but yeah, I just wanted to send, you know, some appreciation to everybody who's out there, you know, in a moment of struggle. And I hope that anything that we've talked about here can, uh, help you figure out what to do next.
Benjamin:Catt Small. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Catt Small:Thank you for having me.
Benjamin:Workface is produced by Hear Me Out, a culture strategy firm for leaders with the courage to listen. Our consulting producer is Lina Misitzis. Original music composed by me, Ben Jackson. Special thanks to Rob McRae and Michelle Mattar. To learn more about Hear Me Out, visit hearmeout.co, follow us on Instagram at @hearmeout_co, or find us on LinkedIn by searching for Hear Me Out.
